Check This Out

[straight pipe]

HEY GUYS READ THIS !MY WIFE WILL TYPE IT CAUSE I CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO POST A E-MAIL.HERE GOES

QUOTE:

"David,

I have researched the Crown Lands Act, the Provincial Snowmobile Trail Regulations and the Off Road Vehicle Act and here is the best answer I can formulate:

The Provincial Snowmobile Trail Regulation designates Provincial Snowmobile Trail means a trail marked by signs that are posted or erected in accordance with Sec.2. and further states that "snowmobile" has the same meaning as in the Off Road Vehicles Act, which I have copied below:

"snowmobile" means a vehicle that has a gross vehicle weight not exceeding 454 kilograms and

(a) is not equipped with wheels, but in place thereof is equipped with tractor treads alone or with tractor treads and skis, or with skis and a propeller, or is a toboggan equipped with tractor treads or a propeller,

(b) is designed primarily for operating over snow or ice, and is used primarily for that purpose, and

(c) is designed to be self-propelled; (<<montoneige>>)

Section 3(1) states no person shall operate a snowmobile on a snow trail without a permit.

The quads that you refer to are classed as all terrain vehicles and do not fall under the definition of "snowmobile."

This would mean that all terrain vehicles should not be sold sno passes and should not be allowed on the trails.

I have spoken with Mr. Duncan Stokes, Snoman Inc at 940-7533 who advises that snopass vendors are requested not to sell passes to ATVs but unless a person specifically states it is for an ATV the vendor may not know the difference.

In answer to your second question, if a town has a bylaw prohibiting quads or trikes, then you cannot traven through that area whether you were allowed on the snow trails or not.

I am also forwarding your name and phone number
david

to Mr. Stokes who advises he would be interested in opening a dialogue with yourself and your organization trackshare.com.

Please feel free to contact me if you have further questions.

Sgt. Wayne (W.G.) Blackmore
Traffic Services "D" Division RCMP
P.O. Box 5650"



Sounds like Snoman is ready to talk?

[straight pipe]

this was my original message:



hello my name is david preteau. i belong to an organization called trackshare.com, we are concerned about winter coming. the concern is that we don't know if we are allowed on the snoman trails. we can purchase passes without hassle but we are not sure if we are legally supposed to be there. my question is this... are we going to be ticketed if we are caught on the trails with a pass? we are riding quads and trikes. we abide by the off road vehicle act at all times. we are all registred as well. it would be nice to know soon so i can relay this info to the club. we are 180 members and growing everyday.and i have another question. if we are allowed on the trails with a pass, what happens when the trail goes through a town that doesn't allow quads and trikes in their limits? does the trail override the bi-laws? these are the main questions that we have . if we never ask we will never know.
yours
david
thank you

[bbertram]

Interesting, ATVs grow every year. If they don't talk to us about how we can work together and use the trails then they will soon face a bigger problem. There will be more and more quads every winter, its better to get something in place now and let the current ATVers lead by example so that the new people joining the sport know what to do on these trails. If they wait till there are much more quads it will very difficult to govern the trails, they will be in way worse shape and snowmobile and ATV riders will be at each others throats.

This is how I see it and I think the trails should be open to ATVs so long as we have a snowpass and abide my certain rules. Only makes sense, anyone caught scewing up the trails is forced to fix them right then and there, if they get caught again a fine willl be handed out and if caught again their machine taken away. Or something like that.

[QUADZILLA]

I hear that snoman is having trouble getting people to volenteer and filling executive positions etc.

Without new people willing to participate it will always come down to the same people doing everything. And that never lasts very long.

If the trails were open to all off road vehicles then there might be a lot more revenue and a lot more new people willing to participate.
:confused3

[trigger222]

This is BS! :mad:
Let's face it, those trails are just as much ours...infact, most of them are made by ATV's during the summer months, and if it wasn't for them the trails would be over grown with grass, shrub, and trees.
I made more trails in this area, and now that a damn groomer goes over them, they belong to a snowmobile club! :rolley2:
And if I get caught using the trails I made, I will be charged. BS!
Why do they get away with this?
Because they charge people for "snowpass"? There is a fredom of movement, and I don't mean Exlax! This is crown land...do we charge folks to walk on crown land down a snowpass trail?
Our clubs should charge the snowmobile clubs a fee for keeping the trails open from over growth if this is the case.
I don't agree with the ATV'ers that cross stitch snowmobile trails (rutting them sideways against the route direction). I do appreciate the groomed trails for easy riding and not getting stuck in the deeper snow. I also fill in any holes I may cause from spinning tires if I get stuck.
But I can't sit back and let them take over an entire trail system that I created and maintained over the summer months. We have to make a stand against it, they did it by numbers and strength. That's how they got the RCMP involved into ticketing people without a "snow pass", that's how they got the law to side with them to prevent ATV's from using "their trails".
We have to stick together and fight this. Those are as much our trails as theirs and we deserve...NO! We have as much a right on them as they do!
I don't want to go around charging snowmobiles to use my trails, I want everyone to enjoy them and respect them so they will be there for years to come.
Why do they want to have exclusive rights to trail systems?
I won't respect this Communist Law...worse than Communism...It's the law of a Tyrant Dictator! :whip:

[Wolf]

I have to agree with you trigger...yeah I know this is a few months late but anyway.....

Last year I phoned snowman because they put up signs along the ditches on the #1 east by Richer advising people that a snow pass was required.when i questioned them as to their right to lay claim to a ditch that I ride the rest of the year...they had no answer and said somebody would get back to me...well guess what....nobody called.The DNR was not concerned around that area and the Steinbach RCMP said they were not going to enforce it in ditches along the highway.Provincial parks and the like would be different however,a friend up at Victoria Beach tells me they are very strict up there for enforcement of the laws.

[barkerlakebob]

1. They cannot ticket you unless their trails are on private land. The trails on Crown land are available to anyone. 2. I hear there are or may have already been changes to the O.R.V. Act that will allow quads with tracks on them to be "legal" isnofar as Snowman is concerned - to travel on their portions of the trails.

for what its worth.......

blb.....

[polaris_dave]

1. They cannot ticket you unless their trails are on private land. The trails on Crown land are available to anyone. 2. I hear there are or may have already been changes to the O.R.V. Act that will allow quads with tracks on them to be "legal" isnofar as Snowman is concerned - to travel on their portions of the trails.

for what its worth.......

blb.....

You can get a ticket on crown land, according to Conservation and RCMP. :eek:

[barkerlakebob]

You can get a ticket on crown land, according to Conservation and RCMP. :eek:

For not having a SnoPass ??

blb........

[polaris_dave]

For not having a SnoPass ??

blb........

Yes, for not having a Snopass on a designated SnoFund trail.

[straight pipe]

yeips!!!! it's all good PD we all know the rules on the trail pass. we have had many threads and discussions on this subject and right now the snow word is a swear. lol

[polaris_600]

I think it sucks. What they are doing is penalizing the ATV community. I do realize, however, that quads do make more of a mess on the trails, BUT, when you cant drive "legally" in a ditch - that is rediculous. I insure my quad just like all snowmobiles do, why am I not allowed to ride. They already don't like us riding on roads, on private land, etc. If they would like to limit us to a "season", they should curve the autopac rates. This way the insurance would last all year, but at a lower price. But I guess the same would have to go with snowmobiles.


Sorry, it just upsets me when you pour so much into a sport that can be used any season, but the powers that be want to limit us..again. When will these limitations stop.:rant:

[dabidbaddblud]

I have to totaly agree with trigger

I live in Gillam, the trails were here, were here long before this sno pass crap and now they have it set up here, they are not ticketing yet and it is volunteer to buy a pass but for how long?

How can they lay claim to something that was never to be owned by anyone.

I can see they wanting to off set their cost but it was their choice to buy a bleeding groomer (which on a side note was broken all last season and the year before made the trails even worse than they could have been)

if they want to charge they can buy the a path through the bush and clear it them bloody self

I don't want to ride my sled on the same trail as them - because all they do is drive faster - because it is smoother and I don't want to be on the other side of the corner.

Merv

[Maxter]

I hear there are or may have already been changes to the O.R.V. Act that will allow quads with tracks on them to be "legal" isnofar as Snowman is concerned - to travel on their portions of the trails.


I have researched the Crown Lands Act, the Provincial Snowmobile Trail Regulations and the Off Road Vehicle Act and here is the best answer I can formulate:


"snowmobile" means a vehicle that has a gross vehicle weight not exceeding 454 kilograms and

(a) is not equipped with wheels, but in place thereof is equipped with tractor treads alone or with tractor treads and skis, or with skis and a propeller, or is a toboggan equipped with tractor treads or a propeller,

(b) is designed primarily for operating over snow or ice, and is used primarily for that purpose, and

(c) is designed to be self-propelled; (<<montoneige>>)

Section 3(1) states no person shall operate a snowmobile on a snow trail without a permit.

Sgt. Wayne (W.G.) Blackmore
Traffic Services "D" Division RCMP
P.O. Box 5650"


A quad with tracks fills all requirements to be allowed on the groomed snowman trails providing they also purchase a snowpass. My intentions with the tracks is to travel on any snowman trail I want. I did last year but never ran into any person of authority.

[dabidbaddblud]

(a) is not equipped with wheels, but in place thereof is equipped with tractor treads alone or with tractor treads and skis, or with skis and a propeller, or is a toboggan equipped with tractor treads or a propeller,

This line alone makes me think a quad with titan 589's/ITP or outlaw style tires should not have a problem - Tractor Treads!

Merv

[polaris_dave]

I have to totaly agree with trigger

I live in Gillam, the trails were here, were here long before this sno pass crap and now they have it set up here, they are not ticketing yet and it is volunteer to buy a pass but for how long?

How can they lay claim to something that was never to be owned by anyone.

I can see they wanting to off set their cost but it was their choice to buy a bleeding groomer (which on a side note was broken all last season and the year before made the trails even worse than they could have been)

if they want to charge they can buy the a path through the bush and clear it them bloody self

I don't want to ride my sled on the same trail as them - because all they do is drive faster - because it is smoother and I don't want to be on the other side of the corner.

Merv


I supposed things are different in different parts of the province... There are sections of our trail that were developed by our snomo club over 20 years ago... So I sit on the fence with the "those trails have been there forever" story...
I would say that the trails we use, we keep maintained and cleaned so that they are passable in the summer (cutting deadfalls, brushing, etc...).

To be totally honest, we have never had problems with quads damaging the trails. Most people who do ride the trails with quads are careful not to leave damage or ruts.
In a normal winter, how many people actually venture out on the trails? when there is 3 feet of snow in the trails and ditches? IMO, if we continue having winters with lots of snow, quads on snowmobile trails won't be as big an issue. If we have winters with little snow, then there will probably be more quad traffic.
I think that if guys really want to travel the SnoFund trails, then they should be allowed to purchase a SnoPass and do so.
It's not worth getting upset over for the 3 months of snow! Quad guys can ride the other 9 months with no *****ing from us sledders!

:friday:

[mailman]

I don't think the issue is who made the trails. Dave, our dads made trails 40 or 50 years ago, does that me we are the only ones allowed to use them? Don't think so. The issue is that because a certain group gets permission and funding to maintain a trail for "their" use, that everyone else must stay off. That's BS !! I'd love to have a sled and ride the trails all winter, but I can't afford one. So does that mean I have to sit on the sofa all winter, because my choice of machinery doesn't meet some politician's definition? This is supposed to be a free country, let's keep it that way. The trails should be for all of us,sleds, quads, dogsled, whatever. Allow us to buy a trailpass and trat's the end of it. We don't wreck the trails anymore than a 900 with a ripsaw and 200 picks...less actually! We have enough trouble fighting off the granola crunching, tofu farting tree huggers, we don't need to fight among ourselves!! I know there are a few bad apples out there, on both sides, but the looks and treatment we got out there last year, on rivers and lakes nonetheless, was pathetic!! Sleds trying to take out 12 yr old kids because the were in the way is beyond BS!!!! I know that you have to protect your membership and all, but wouldn't it be cool if 400 or 500 trackshare members joined your club? It's the Brokenhead Trailblazers, not the Brokenhead Groomedtrail Snowmobile only Blazers!! Not picking on you buddy, just using you as an example,no offense meant.

[Maxter]

......We have enough trouble fighting off the granola crunching, tofu farting tree huggers,......
:))) :))) :))) :))) :))) :))) :))) :)))

[700]

by my place there is a trail that run's beside a fire gaurd rd. legaly i can be on that road. i was told by a C.O."it's not maintained, it's not a road, you can be on it". the trail is 10-20' in the bush off that road (snow pass needed) this past winter the groomer ran down the road because there was trees every 5' over the trail. i was getting yelled at by the snowmobilers because i was on there, it was a road before it was a trail and there trail is there it's just to much work to cut it out. about the ditch thing, i've heard storys about people almost getting in fist fights becaue of not having a snow pass " it's a ditch" they did no work to put it there, how do they have the right to say it's there's. they seem to always do what they want and us atvers can't do anything about it!!!!


i would like to see all of us ATVers get together and have our trails where we have all the rights and can say " if it dosn't have wheels get off" (no offence to those running tracked atv's). i would pay for a (mud pass) to help maintain the trails and wouln't care if the sleds were on them in the winter, hell they would pack the trails for us.
that's my 2 cents

[mailman]

That's exactly what I mean! We get sh** from sledders for doing what we have every right to do! I was a sledder...I wasn't like that! What's with these guys? Grizzmeister and Runner have some entertaining stories like that too. I'm sure that we all do, quite frankly and that sucks!Since when does buying a sled also buy you the country? Sorry I'm ranting. Been off work for a while and I guess I'm getting bored!!

[polaris_dave]

I don't think the issue is who made the trails. Dave, our dads made trails 40 or 50 years ago, does that me we are the only ones allowed to use them? Don't think so. The issue is that because a certain group gets permission and funding to maintain a trail for "their" use, that everyone else must stay off. That's BS !! I'd love to have a sled and ride the trails all winter, but I can't afford one. So does that mean I have to sit on the sofa all winter, because my choice of machinery doesn't meet some politician's definition? This is supposed to be a free country, let's keep it that way. The trails should be for all of us,sleds, quads, dogsled, whatever. Allow us to buy a trailpass and trat's the end of it. We don't wreck the trails anymore than a 900 with a ripsaw and 200 picks...less actually! We have enough trouble fighting off the granola crunching, tofu farting tree huggers, we don't need to fight among ourselves!! I know there are a few bad apples out there, on both sides, but the looks and treatment we got out there last year, on rivers and lakes nonetheless, was pathetic!! Sleds trying to take out 12 yr old kids because the were in the way is beyond BS!!!! I know that you have to protect your membership and all, but wouldn't it be cool if 400 or 500 trackshare members joined your club? It's the Brokenhead Trailblazers, not the Brokenhead Groomedtrail Snowmobile only Blazers!! Not picking on you buddy, just using you as an example,no offense meant.

I agree with you Craig, the issue is more the use of the trails. When the MB government passed legislation to designate some trails on crown land as snowmobile trails, they probably didn't forsee the problem of other user groups. We do get along with the dogsledders quite well in the Mars Sand Hills, and they have even purchased SnoPasses in the past!
I know that some States have trails that are designated for both ATVs and sleds, so it should be able to work here too. The trails could probably use some work to make them safer for both types of traffic also.
It sure would be nice to pick up some new members that frequent Trackshare. We've tossed the idea around of holding ATV derbies again... (we held a few in the late 80s). This could easily happen if we had some new members which were willing to help organize or participate in some rides and/or derbies in the summer months. Anyone interested? We haven't pushed the derby issue lately mainly because of insurance. Our club is not covered to hold ATV derbies. Do any of the derbies out there have insurance??

[dabidbaddblud]

I have 2 sleds and a quad so I'm not leaning one way or the other I totaly agree fighting amongst the us is useless - but as long as a "^^%&head" wants to hurt somebody because they ride an atv it is not going to improve the situation between the groups.
I heard Runner's story right from him and I've heard to many others like it
as long as activities such as these are allowed to continue, it is not going to get any better - these individuals need to be reported to the RCMP and charged
and as for the damage I agree I've seen a lot more damage done by one sled in 5 seconds than I can do with my quad in 5 minutes


hot hot hot topic!
Merv

[700]

i would donate my time, if it ment all the BS would stop and there was trails we could use all-year round. i think it is hard to do because if you take Trackshare for instance, there are members all across MB and a few outside MB (don't know). so where do you start trails for us so it's good for all.

as for the insurance for derbys - make everyone in it sign a waver saying the club or no person is responsible for anything that happens in the derby. if they don't sign it they can't ride.

[Maxter]

I'm not so sure wavers are really worth the paper the're written on. Heard some stories that scare me.

[700]

i know every time i start my bike i could get hurt very badly, its a 1000 lbs. that hits 60 mpr in 6 sec. or so, but thats off topic. i would like to see something done and i for 1 would do lots to help where and when i could. this sport has grown leaps and bounds and it's time other groups started to reconize there not the only ones anymore!!!!

[dabidbaddblud]

right on right on
the waiver thing is hard
but as far as I'm concerned I would like to see people held responible for their actions
not the government not the manufacture and not the person they called a friend 5 minutes prior to them doing something stupid
if they turn the key and kill or maime themselves it is them and them alone that is responsible.

Courts shouldn't even take five minutes to rule on that

no waiver no insurane - just ride and take responibility for your actions

on the other note I would help out when and where I could - but I don't like being forced to pay in to something that I feel is not adding value - snowmachine and atv's are off road - so quit trying to make a road! just my opinion - everybody enjoys different riding - but do we need to spend millions to make it fun?
it was fun when you started and the trails were rough right?

Merv

[Maxter]

- but I don't like being forced to pay in to something that I feel is not adding value - snowmachine and atv's are off road - so quit trying to make a road! just my opinion - everybody enjoys different riding - but do we need to spend millions to make it fun?
it was fun when you started and the trails were rough right?

Merv
My sentiments exactly.... you hit the nail on the head with that statement..

[700]

my point is, when i put my time in to cut a trail, then the groomer runs down it because it's already cleaned, then i get told to get off it, that's just not right and by all means i don't like road ridding, but on the other hand i don't like gettig hit in the face with branches all the time ether. i don't know why can't we all just get along!!!!

your right about being responsible for yourself, but there are the ones that do hurt other people in the process.

[mailman]

Ahmen!!!!!

[dabidbaddblud]

Every year I clear branches - on the ungroomed trails that I ride, I don't expect anybody to pay me. - I avoid the groomed trails
on a side note I don't understand why guys wreck their 2" tracks by riding on trails at 90mph - there is not enough powder to keep things "lubricated"

I do agree with you about the people being stupid and hurting someone else that is where they need to held responsible and victim compensated - thanks for pointing that out
my prior coment was completely about someone hurting them self and going after somebody who initiated the ride or a organization such as Trackshare.

Maybe we should get a atv - version of the snoman club
then approach them if they won't approach us - how can they there is no US
and make it a 50/50 thing - and those who want to run over atv's can become the targets instead of the atv's for all the fines - oh and those who don't buy (which I'm totaly against)
then at least we could make the 2nd biggest change needed
ONE PASS PER PERSON NOT MACHINE! - I CANNOT RIDE MORE THAN ONE MACHINE AT A TIME - as per BLB and until you can show me that I can.....

Merv

[Maxter]

.....- oh and those who don't buy (which I'm totaly against)
then at least we could make the 2nd biggest change needed
ONE PASS PER PERSON NOT MACHINE! - I CANNOT RIDE MORE THAN ONE MACHINE AT A TIME - as per BLB and until you can show me that I can.....

Merv
That's another touchy subject because several peeps ride double (quads & sleds) Why should I pay double because I have a two up machine and I like to ride with my significant other up close.

Not trying to start anything cause I totally agree with all that has been said so far except that last statement.

[03griz]

Let me know were there were sledders running down ATV's I will sit there next winter and wait, I would like to see who wins when a sled with a 1000 dollar plastic hood runs into my front bumper............ I'd bet he wouldn't do that again.
Better yet, lets organize an unorganized rided and cruise up and down that place. Some guys tried to give my buddy crap for driving his samari on the pinawa channel last winter. Sorry but I don't see anything wrong with what he was doing. He wasn't on a trail. If you are worried about ruts maybe you shouldn't be driving at 90 miles an hour. He lives there and pays taxes to have waterfront property-which includes the right to use that waterway. If some punk who lives in the city doesn't like it then they can stay home. Around Inwood there are some trails that go down access trails to leased fields. So let me get this straight, I can't drive my quad on them but if I have bails on that field that need to be picked up I can destroy the trails by driving a fourwheel drive tractor down them with a trailer behind to pick up the bails? People need to give there head a shake. Can't we all be friends? No fighting!

[barkerlakebob]

I understand that the subject of carrying the Snoman Pass in a persons wallet is to be challenged in court in the very near future. I am trying to find out where and when so I can find out the result. I understand the reason for carrying it on the person rather than the machine was the poor makeup of the tag....

If I find out anything worth repeating, I will post it pronto....

blb.

[polaris_dave]

I understand that the subject of carrying the Snoman Pass in a persons wallet is to be challenged in court in the very near future. I am trying to find out where and when so I can find out the result. I understand the reason for carrying it on the person rather than the machine was the poor makeup of the tag....

If I find out anything worth repeating, I will post it pronto....

blb.

I believe the law says the decal must be affixed to the plate. Let us know what you find out...

[mailman]

03 Grizz, talk to Runner about almost fighting his way out of a warm up shack near Seven Sisters. Or talk to The Kid about a few sleds missing him by inches on Netley,as they went by at 75mph. Or how about Grizzmeister's story from Marchand,or the head shaking and dirty looks we got on LAKE WINNIPEG(!!!!!) from some jerk on a ZR900. Truth is, there are a TON of stories like these,they aren't isolated incidents! there seems to be some superiority complex with a lot of sledders! That won't change overnight.

[RUNNER]

After putting on about 800 miles on snoman trails this winter I came to a few conclusions about the current situation. As far as legal point of view goes as long as you have a snopass with a sticker on your plate on your quad DNR or RCMP will not ticket you, they couldn't be bothered to do so.

And I'v never heard of any one getting a ticket with a snowpass on they'r quad. As far as sledders go most of them are good. Just to get an idea of the attitude on the trail, every time I passed a sled I gave a quick bikers wave. And more than 75% waved back. What does that tell you.

The problem is with a couple of old school die hard sledders that go around and peddle they'r rural myth about quads not being allowed and getting ticketted. I dont know what the law exactly states about snoman trails, but what I do know is you will NOT get a ticket. For anyone new reading this do a thread search and check out "nro encounter" in the lounge.

[polaris_dave]

After putting on about 800 miles on snoman trails this winter I came to a few conclusions about the current situation. As far as legal point of view goes as long as you have a snopass with a sticker on your plate on your quad DNR or RCMP will not ticket you, they couldn't be bothered to do so.

And I'v never heard of any one getting a ticket with a snowpass on they'r quad. As far as sledders go most of them are good. Just to get an idea of the attitude on the trail, every time I passed a sled I gave a quick bikers wave. And more than 75% waved back. What does that tell you.

The problem is with a couple of old school die hard sledders that go around and peddle they'r rural myth about quads not being allowed and getting ticketted. I dont know what the law exactly states about snoman trails, but what I do know is you will NOT get a ticket. For anyone new reading this do a thread search and check out "nro encounter" in the lounge.

http://www.trackshare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1754&highlight=encounter

[GIBBIES]

We did a run to Falcon Lake Easter weekend .Checked with the RCMP and the NRO they didnt care who had trail passes or who did ,they did say they appreciated the notice that 10 quads where rolling into town at 11pm on a Thursday night and said thanks for phoning in advance.I dont think they want to do the ticket thing unless they already have you stopped in a trail check stop looking for registrations and Booze.If you respect the area you will be just fine,and dont make wild stories of some far fetched,stretched out stories of vandilizing shacks and trails and stuff. You know who you are.Its all good isnt it??????

[dabidbaddblud]

That's another touchy subject because several peeps ride double (quads & sleds) Why should I pay double because I have a two up machine and I like to ride with my significant other up close.

Not trying to start anything cause I totally agree with all that has been said so far except that last statement.

I didn't mean that your passenger has to buy what I mean is right now if you have 3 snowmachines and only you drive them - you can not drive more than one at a time so why do you have to buy 3 snow passes you should only buy one - as the driver

as for a passenger they are not driving the machine why should they pay - on the other hand they are enjoying the groomed trail so I could see the argument either way

I just belive that if you buy a pass for the year, no matter what sled you drive you are covered. the pass is to cover the use of a sled on the trail no matter how many passangers are on it

this is just to clarify my orginal statement - total understand your view of the passanger

Merv

[bluegriz]

the same thing was starting to happen at the festival on the red snowmobile races.The guys in the big 4x4 trucks hated the sleds that were flying buy them as they were trying to climb the sides of the red river.and then the snowmobilers were *****ing that the trucks didn't belong there.seeing as I have been there on both sled and 4x4 I really didn't care just that the sleds were in more danger of getting run over .people must have nothing better in there lifes than to ***** and cry about what others are doing. GROW UP PEOPLE